natsuya 发表于 2011-5-5 19:23

語言學研究支持日本語系的彌生農業擴張起源

本帖最后由 natsuya 于 2011-5-5 19:31 编辑

Bayesian phylogenetic analysis supports an agricultural origin of Japonic languages

Sean Lee and Toshikazu Hasegawa

Languages, like genes, evolve by a process of descent with modification. This striking similarity between biological and linguistic evolution allows us to apply phylogenetic methods to explore how languages, as well as the people who speak them, are related to one another through evolutionary history. Language phylogenies constructed with lexical data have so far revealed population expansions of Austronesian, Indo-European and Bantu speakers. However, how robustly a phylogenetic approach can chart the history of language evolution and what language phylogenies reveal about human prehistory must be investigated more thoroughly on a global scale. Here we report a phylogeny of 59 Japonic languages and dialects. We used this phylogeny to estimate time depth of its root and compared it with the time suggested by an agricultural expansion scenario for Japanese origin. In agreement with the scenario, our results indicate that Japonic languages descended from a common ancestor approximately 2182 years ago. Together with archaeological and biological evidence, our results suggest that the first farmers of Japan had a profound impact on the origins of both people and languages. On a broader level, our results are consistent with a theory that agricultural expansion is the principal factor for shaping global linguistic diversity.

摘要與全文:
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/05/04/rspb.2011.0518.full

natsuya 发表于 2011-5-5 22:28

本帖最后由 natsuya 于 2011-5-5 22:31 编辑

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/dating-origin-of-japanese-with-bayesian.html

One more success story in the application of Bayesian phylogenetics to language studies. As Nicholas Wade reports:
Researchers studying the various dialects of Japanese have concluded that all are descended from a founding language taken to the Japanese islands about 2,200 years ago. The finding sheds new light on the origin of the Japanese people, suggesting that their language is descended from that of the rice-growing farmers who arrived in Japan from the Korean Peninsula, and not from the hunter-gatherers who first inhabited the islands some 30,000 years ago.

I think it's absolutely fascinating how closely the authors' date for Japonic languages corresponds to the Yayoi period. The Quentin & Atkinson way of doing language age estimation was initially met with derision by the linguistic establishment: part of it was that they did not understand it, part of it that it was introduced with a very controversial topic (Indo-European), and part of it that it triggered a deep-seated skepticism against the application of biologically-inspired methods to the study of culture.

Nonetheless, the method keeps on bringing reasonable results every time it has been applied, and it has now been adopted by many researchers of a quantitative inclination.

From the paper:
Fortunately, recent progresses in phylogenetic methods and their application in studying languages were found to provide adequate solutions for these problems . Accumulating empirical evidence suggests that languages have, astonishingly, gene-like properties in numerous aspects and they also evolve by a process of descent with modification (for review, see ). This implies that once the shared innovations among languages are revealed by converting linguistic signals (i.e. presence or absence of homologous words) into discrete binary characters, various stochastic phylogenetic techniques for modelling biological evolution can be used to adequately reconstruct the history of language evolution. During the last decade, therefore, these techniques were quickly adopted to critically examine, and subsequently corroborate, instances of farming/language co-dispersal for Bantu , Indo-European and Austronesian speakers .

What I find fascinating is the widely different manifestations of the farming/language dispersal phenomenon: the earliest attested one is the expansion of Indo-European languages from Asia Minor ~9,000 years ago, and the latest one the expansion of Japonic languages from mainland Asia ~2,400 years ago. Bantu, Austronesian, Semitic languages fill the void between these two dates. The law-like regularity with which farmers fill lands, transform the landscape, grow in numbers, and start diverging linguistically as they do so is a rare instance of mathematical regularity manifesting itself in the recent history of our species.

But, lest we get too much carried away by admiration for the farming phenomenon, let's tip our sugegasa to the Jomon hunter-gatherers of Japan, who were the partial ancestors of the modern Japanese people, and whose genetic legacy is best preserved among the Ainu (left). Again, from the paper:
If our results are correct, one surprising aspect of prehistoric Japan becomes apparent; the hunter–gatherer population, which settled in Japan around 12 000–30 000 YBP, managed to fend off the farmers for thousands of years until being abolished suddenly and dramatically with the arrival of proto-Japonic-speaking farmers around 2400 YBP. To place this in perspective, it should be noted that the hunter–gatherer societies and their languages in Europe began to be abolished by those of the farmers as early as 8500 YBP . Even some of Japan's closest neighbours such as China had started agriculture since 9000 YBP , which progressively brought about fully fledged kingdoms equipped with metal tools fighting each other for political unification. During all this transition outside, the hunter–gatherers of Japan continued to prosper by using simple stone tools and without adopting full-scale agriculture, despite knowledge of cultivation of many crops . There are probably two reasons that explain their unusually long survival. First, the population size of the hunter–gatherers may have been too large to be invaded by nearby farmers. The hunter–gatherer of Japan was perhaps one of the most affluent hunter–gatherers known to humankind, endowed with a large range of plants, animals and sea foods . This vast availability of food resources is probably related to the fact that the world's oldest known pottery was made by the hunter–gatherers of Japan . The development of pottery meant that unlike other hunter–gatherers around the world, they had a means to cook and store the foods that were available abundantly in their environment, and such could have triggered a population explosion to the extent that it prevented the farmers asserting any force over the hunter–gatherers for a long time. The second reason behind their long survival could be that it probably took a few thousand years for the farmers to modify rice, one of their main food sources, to grow in cold climate . The archaeological evidence suggest it was not until around 3500 YBP that rice farming of warm southern China spread to the much colder Korean Peninsular , which is thought to be the most recent homeland of proto-Japonic-speaking farmers. A combination of these two factors might have contributed to the unusually long occupation of the hunter–gatherers in Japan.

linxiao 发表于 2011-5-5 22:46

本帖最后由 linxiao 于 2011-5-5 22:48 编辑


很“数学”的算法

但是文章没说那些词选的都是具体什么词,篮子是怎么构成的

还有就是对 东京-北海道-山梨 与其他日语方言分开,感到非常不解|||

能算出2182年也算他很厉害
不过疑问是,如果不把冲绳算在内(或者过个50年冲绳方言彻底被日语取代了),是不是会算出他们的历史才1000年?

不过Anyway感谢Ha Ok兄贴文喔!

natsuya 发表于 2011-5-6 12:52


很“数学”的算法

但是文章没说那些词选的都是具体什么词,篮子是怎么构成的

还有就是对 东京-北海道-山梨 与其他日语方言分开,感到非常不解|||

能算出2182年也算他很厉害
不过疑问是,如果不把冲绳算 ...
linxiao 发表于 2011-5-5 22:46 http://ranhaer.com/images/common/back.gifYou're welcome. 那麼或許Japonic語系在列島的歷史還要更久遠也說不定。

剪径者 发表于 2011-5-6 23:03

这也不难理解啊,就好像汉语在北方的历史很古老,但是官话的历史确实年轻。
我猜那些黄土高原上的戎狄们也许有不少是汉语族的其他语支吧。

linxiao 发表于 2011-5-6 23:45

是啊
所以用现代现存的语言来分析是会遇到这种问题

英语也是一样,用现存的英语方言分析大概会得出他们的祖先是15世纪才上岛||||
但好在大陆的日耳曼语言都在,所以可以得出正确结论。

岛屿大多是比较神奇的地方,基本上他会将来源多样的语言融合起来,而抹去语言本来多元的过去
台湾的闽南语也是如此,闽南语的各路腔调、发音在台湾最后就会融合成优势腔

我觉得英语、日语的形成大致也是这个路数,只是因为时间早、岛屿大,会比台湾复杂一点。

linxiao 发表于 2011-5-6 23:46

“汉语族的其他分支”这个说得真好

因为看了杨雄《方言》才知道,西晋时期函谷关以东还都是叫“舟”,以西才叫“船”
可是现在哪有一个地方口语叫舟?

剪径者 发表于 2011-5-7 00:10

本帖最后由 剪径者 于 2011-5-7 00:12 编辑

“汉语族的其他分支”这个说得真好

因为看了杨雄《方言》才知道,西晋时期函谷关以东还都是叫“舟”,以西才叫“船”
可是现在哪有一个地方口语叫舟?
linxiao 发表于 2011-5-6 23:46 http://www.ranhaer.com/images/common/back.gif

舟和船本来有区别,舟本来指很小的独木舟,出现的早,而船是较大的航船,出现的晚。这个有可能是保留没保留旧称的区别。

linxiao 发表于 2011-5-7 21:14

本帖最后由 linxiao 于 2011-5-7 21:17 编辑

我看了一下,你说的也有道理
比如:
小曰舟,大曰船。——《说文义证》(桂馥)
段玉裁注《说文》:“古人言舟,汉人言船

不过问题主要在于桂馥和段玉裁都是清代的人
==============================
而单看汉代时期人的记录,似乎看不出舟、船有什么差别
《说文》原文:舟,船也;船,舟也
《方言》原文:舟,自关而西谓之船,自关而东或谓之舟,或谓之航。

“船”最早出现在文献里也就是在西汉,《史记》《方言》等算是最早记录的文献了

个人怀疑 船 在关西很早就一直有使用了,只是在整个东周因为都是以洛阳为雅言,所以船在这之前一直是方言土语,完全没有出现在《诗经》里。

而且《方言》本身扔把“舟”放在前面,说明当时多少还保有“通语”的地位,

剪径者 发表于 2011-5-7 21:46

“船”最早出现在文献里也就是在西汉,《史记》《方言》等算是最早记录的文献了

个人怀疑 船 在关西很早就一直有使用了,只是在整个东周因为都是以洛阳为雅言,所以船在这之前一直是方言土语,完全没有出现在《诗经》里。

而且《方言》本身扔把“舟”放在前面,说明当时多少还保有“通语”的地位,
linxiao 发表于 2011-5-7 21:14 http://www.ranhaer.com/images/common/back.gif

船字的出现应该在春秋战国时代或者更早,因为《韩非》里就有了,“千钧得船则浮,锱铢失船则沉”(《韩非·功名》),另外《越绝书》里也有,“舟室者,勾践船宫也”,有意思的是这里用船来解释舟,可见当时可能船比舟用的更广。

linxiao 发表于 2011-5-7 23:11

恩 我也觉得肯定使用这个词比文献记载要早得多

howitzer 发表于 2011-5-11 09:05

“食”、“喫”说文都有收录,今天是官话说腭化的“喫”、六南说“食”,“喫”到底是何时扩散开来的,唐代还是宋代?

linxiao 发表于 2011-5-11 09:58

没有六南吧
上海话、南昌话和长沙话好像都是 吃

闽语、客家和粤语倒都是食

Yungsiyebu 发表于 2011-5-11 12:10

我总感觉水稻农民的弥生人群可能讲一些类似华南少民或东南亚人群的语言,而日语应来自古坟(大和)时期的大陆移民,与高句丽等人群相关。

linxiao 发表于 2011-5-11 20:02

古坟时代是从东四国-关西发源的,他代表的是阶级社会、国家的产生,应该不是民族替代吧。。。

如果是民族替代(比如弥生),应该是从北九州先开始

natsuya 发表于 2011-5-12 01:35

古坟时代是从东四国-关西发源的,他代表的是阶级社会、国家的产生,应该不是民族替代吧。。。

如果是民族替代(比如弥生),应该是从北九州先开始
linxiao 发表于 2011-5-11 20:02 http://ranhaer.com/images/common/back.gif似乎常見的觀點是日本向朝鮮半島學習引進新的器物?老永說的應該是江上波夫吧?

linxiao 发表于 2011-5-12 09:36

本帖最后由 linxiao 于 2011-5-12 09:39 编辑

似乎常見的觀點是日本向朝鮮半島學習引進新的器物?老永說的應該是江上波夫吧?
natsuya 发表于 2011-5-12 01:35 http://www.ranhaer.com/images/common/back.gif

恩 也伴随持续但零散的各路移民(包括汉人),民族替代不太可能了。

因为古坟时代作为考古年代也要3世纪之后“古坟”产生了才算开始
除了产生地点是东四国-关西 所以不支持民族替代外
按《三国志》的记载,弥生末期(2世纪末-3世纪初)的日本从对马岛一直绵延过去已经有了几十上百个阶级分明的国家了,小国林立、农耕民族的列岛,基本是很难被民族替代了

当然,不列颠可以算个例子,但毫无疑问凯尔特人的语言不仅一直生存到现在,而且历史上和日耳曼人的碰撞、交流都十分清晰,威尔士人的语言、文学更是源远流长
如果有所谓的“古坟新民族”,那两大民族必将展开长期交战,再不然“弥生旧民族”至少还能往北逃同化阿伊努人呢

所以没有这个可能性。
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